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???
03/09/06 13:12
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#111690 - Unfortunately, no
Responding to: ???'s previous message
Jan said:
As a quick fix, would't placing the PCB on a piece of flat metal sheet suffice, at least to measure whether a double-sided board would suffice?

Not really, as very dirt clock signals are running across the board.
There are many aspects how a solid ground plane works and helps to make an application to work properly. One, which is important here, and which cannot be simulated by having a solid ground plane only near to the board is, that only a solid ground plane being as near to signal line as signal trace width is, does relevantly reduce ground noise and keeps the ground return current directly under the signal trace. This has to do with the magnetic coupling of signal trace and ground return current.

In Mahmood's application analog signals and digital signals have to be handled. And it must be provided, that the according ground return currents are only flowing in the according section, means digital ground return currents must only flow in the digital section and the analog ones only in the analog section. Only a solid ground plane being directly under the according signal traces will perform this. A solid ground plane farer away will not do this. Remember, with a 4 layer board solid ground plane is only 0.5mm away from signal traces. And if you assume a typical signal trace width of 0.3mm, then this is a real good ratio to achieve proper magnetic coupling of signal current and its associated ground return current and by this to force the ground return current to flow directly under the signal trace and to keep the voltage drop of ground return current, means ground noise, as small as possible!

To bring it to the point: Fast digital circuits or mixed applications using an analog section and digital section are impossible to get properly handled without a solid gound plane!!

Jan said:
Is there an explanation, why the external oscillator is more "dirty" than the internal one? Does it have bigger power consumption, or is that the HF ground return "common resistance" which makes it "dirty", or what?

There are several aspects:

Typical crystal oscillator modules are fabricated to have a high fan out and to keep the signal clean even under bad circumstances, like running the clock line over longer distances or to have a large capacitve load connected to the output. In order to make a stiff and strong output, very fast logic chips, like 74ACMOS are used internally. If they would have 74HCMOS chips in it, then it would not be so bad. But using 74ACMOS, and comparable fast ones, is bad!
So, this crystal oscillator modules show very steep edges of clock signal, which makes them emit lots of very high reaching harmonics. When these oscillator modules are now used without a solid ground plane, than very high impedance poles caused by avoidable ground inductances and stray capacitances can be forced to resonate. The result can be enormous high frequency potential shifts between different ground points on the board, menas enormous ground noise can develop. So much, that the noise margins of digital chips can become violated, and the digital section refuses to work properly!

It's like if you have build a circuit containing 74ACMOS chips, and this you would never do with neglecting the solid ground plane, right?

In order to be strong these crystal oscillator modules show a considerable higher current consumption: Where a microcontroller only consumes a few mA such an crystal oscillator module will "suck" between 20mA and 50mA!

Another aspect is, that due to the large dimensions of such a crystal oscillator module supply decoupling does not work satisfyingly. So, whenever possible a crystal oscillator module in SMD-package should be choosen, or at least in a half-DIL-package. But even then, the clock signal traces on the board are much longer, than when using the internal Pierce oscillator of micro. This will always result in much higher noise ground noise.

Kai

List of 117 messages in thread
TopicAuthorDate
AD9835 noise problem            01/01/70 00:00      
   noise            01/01/70 00:00      
   Recommendations            01/01/70 00:00      
      quick fix?            01/01/70 00:00      
         Maybe            01/01/70 00:00      
            Transmission lines            01/01/70 00:00      
               5MHz?            01/01/70 00:00      
                  Spectrum analyser            01/01/70 00:00      
                     It's ground noise            01/01/70 00:00      
                        ground noise and groundhogs            01/01/70 00:00      
                  Harmonics as well            01/01/70 00:00      
         comments            01/01/70 00:00      
            Why separate the analog & digital gnds?            01/01/70 00:00      
               Splitting the ground plane            01/01/70 00:00      
               Evaluation board            01/01/70 00:00      
            thin ground?            01/01/70 00:00      
               that is why you use star            01/01/70 00:00      
               Ground wire in parallel            01/01/70 00:00      
                  and a twisted pair?            01/01/70 00:00      
                     Would do!            01/01/70 00:00      
                        does not exist, Jan if you used twisted            01/01/70 00:00      
                           The clock signal?            01/01/70 00:00      
                              oh well            01/01/70 00:00      
                                 Indeed            01/01/70 00:00      
                                    is there a way...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                       Hardly            01/01/70 00:00      
                                       unfortunately not            01/01/70 00:00      
                           twisted pair            01/01/70 00:00      
                              is that not obvious            01/01/70 00:00      
            No ground traces, but patches            01/01/70 00:00      
               the bane of many            01/01/70 00:00      
                  Why 1 or 2 layers            01/01/70 00:00      
                     it's nice!            01/01/70 00:00      
                        No Secrets            01/01/70 00:00      
                           DALO 2M professional            01/01/70 00:00      
                              UV ink Problem            01/01/70 00:00      
                                 Mixed method?            01/01/70 00:00      
                                    No Need for DALO            01/01/70 00:00      
                     CE            01/01/70 00:00      
                        Single step mode            01/01/70 00:00      
                           If you want...            01/01/70 00:00      
                              mmm            01/01/70 00:00      
                                 Dreaming            01/01/70 00:00      
                                    LAYOUT            01/01/70 00:00      
                                       100nF caps            01/01/70 00:00      
                                          100nF ?            01/01/70 00:00      
                                             ok            01/01/70 00:00      
                                       Some checks            01/01/70 00:00      
            It's my daily job!            01/01/70 00:00      
         Unfortunately, no            01/01/70 00:00      
            simulate double-layer            01/01/70 00:00      
   Seperate Analog and Digital Supply            01/01/70 00:00      
      RLC-filters don't help?            01/01/70 00:00      
         separate            01/01/70 00:00      
            And...            01/01/70 00:00      
               Seperate Supplies            01/01/70 00:00      
                  Evaluation board            01/01/70 00:00      
                     No not that one...            01/01/70 00:00      
                        Curly            01/01/70 00:00      
                           OT: Hair            01/01/70 00:00      
                              lets have pictures            01/01/70 00:00      
                                 No no...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                 http://www.k6ese.com/Mar_Vista_Shack.htm            01/01/70 00:00      
                                    but it is relevant            01/01/70 00:00      
                              No wonder...            01/01/70 00:00      
       waveforms            01/01/70 00:00      
         Link to DDS page            01/01/70 00:00      
            Add the second stage...            01/01/70 00:00      
               Filter components            01/01/70 00:00      
            clock            01/01/70 00:00      
               What clock            01/01/70 00:00      
                  ?            01/01/70 00:00      
                     Sampling theorem            01/01/70 00:00      
                        But...            01/01/70 00:00      
                           Can't find it now            01/01/70 00:00      
         Ground of probe?            01/01/70 00:00      
            even better            01/01/70 00:00      
               Good trick!            01/01/70 00:00      
            same point            01/01/70 00:00      
               Both            01/01/70 00:00      
                  I feel strong now!            01/01/70 00:00      
                     Funny!            01/01/70 00:00      
               Depends...            01/01/70 00:00      
                  Oh Dear            01/01/70 00:00      
                     NO analog outputs            01/01/70 00:00      
                        since there is no schematics presented            01/01/70 00:00      
                           Publishing failed            01/01/70 00:00      
                              then give a link to an ORCAD drawing            01/01/70 00:00      
                                 Schematics            01/01/70 00:00      
                                    corrections            01/01/70 00:00      
                                       Big test            01/01/70 00:00      
                                    Try This Schematic...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                       one more problem            01/01/70 00:00      
                                       I miss the second 300R resistor            01/01/70 00:00      
                                          Terminating Resistor.            01/01/70 00:00      
                     Answers            01/01/70 00:00      
                        University of Kai            01/01/70 00:00      
                           Keep us informed...            01/01/70 00:00      
                              of course            01/01/70 00:00      
                              Update            01/01/70 00:00      
                                 Eager to know            01/01/70 00:00      
                                    Me too            01/01/70 00:00      
                                 Autoreload            01/01/70 00:00      
                                 Current source output            01/01/70 00:00      
                           Electronic World Feb 06            01/01/70 00:00      
   Superb!            01/01/70 00:00      
      No surprise            01/01/70 00:00      
   AD9835 Cycles            01/01/70 00:00      
   Solid Ground Plane Update!!!!!            01/01/70 00:00      
      Very nice results!            01/01/70 00:00      
         Low frequency            01/01/70 00:00      
            SLIGHt correction            01/01/70 00:00      
            OPA27?            01/01/70 00:00      
         Cross talk on PCB tracks            01/01/70 00:00      
            Have a look at this plot            01/01/70 00:00      
            Interesting question            01/01/70 00:00      
               further interesting question            01/01/70 00:00      

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