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???
03/15/07 04:32
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#135028 - I don't think we entirely disagree, Kai ...
Responding to: ???'s previous message
However, my position is thta on should endeavor to become expert before going to PCB. This is achievable only by some form of hand-wiring, and by carefully examining the effects of certain construction techniques. Wire-wrapping works fine for digital hardware. I've not had problems with it in analog cases because I've never built precise analog circuits with wire-wrap.

I've built them with careful, painstaking, point-to-point wiring directly over a fixed ground plane and, in some cases, with GND wires on either side, in intimate contact (insulation to insulation) and glued together with, the signal wire. Longer leads, 10 CM or more were done with coaxial cable or shielded twinax if frequency or sensitivity was high.

When a newbie learns the benefits of such techniques, he figures out how to implement them in PCB as well. If his only contact with the problems one can unintentionally build into a PCB is on a PCB, he's never going to learn to avoid them because they're nearly impossible to fix on a multilayer board.

I've seen men work for hours on a PCB, using spectrum analyzer and metal dividers to help find improvements in grounding and bypass. I've seen them soldering thick wires on the supply lines to help with supply distribution issues. If you've got to hold a 10 mV power-gnd noise ceiling, there's no end to what you'll have to do.

Of course, most newbies, just consider Mike for example, probably don't even have a DMM. They need an oscilloscope, and, in fact, one of substantial bandwidth and sensitivity in order to see the benefit of these techniques.

You're probably right about the amount of radiation from wire-wrapped circuits. However, generally, I'm more concerned about what gets in than I am about what gets out. I'm sure you understand that, particularly since most of my stuff's in an industrial environment.

One thing anyone should construct is a continuity tester. By that, I mean a circuit that squeeks or buzzes or rings when there's a voltage offset of somewhat less than 0.3 volts between the two probes ... something that won't forward bias a silicon diode or turn on a transistor. The ones built into many DMM's present too high a voltage to the circuit under test. That's a discussion for another day, though.

How can people be expected to design PCB's when they don't have experience, don't have test equipment, don't have proper materials? Having good software won't do any more than make them generate the same rubbish they'd generate without it. Building the rubbish on 4-layer boards won't make them better than on 2-layers, though. It just makes them more costly.

On the other hand, if they get good prototyping boards, they can wire-wrap or hand-solder their circuits and apply proper techniques. I've already described how one can build a multilayer sandwich if it's really critical.

Multilayer boards can be made to work VERY well, but, for the inexperienced, they're very hard to modifiy for the better.

The following might provide some interesting information regarding circuit board layout.

http://focus.ti.com/lit/an/slva232/slva232.pdf
http://focus.ti.com/lit/an/slua392/slua392.pdf
http://focus.ti.com/lit/an/sdya011/sdya011.pdf
http://focus.ti.com/lit/ml/sloa089/sloa089.pdf

RE






List of 81 messages in thread
TopicAuthorDate
new PCB software wanted            01/01/70 00:00      
   If that is the case be happy, the more jumpe            01/01/70 00:00      
   Mike, when will you...            01/01/70 00:00      
      It isn't me            01/01/70 00:00      
         Four layer boards??            01/01/70 00:00      
            The only you get is a circuit >somwhat working<            01/01/70 00:00      
               sure, but he does not want to 'design' he wants to            01/01/70 00:00      
                  Connect A to B            01/01/70 00:00      
                     naah            01/01/70 00:00      
               are you sure you're not overstating your case?            01/01/70 00:00      
                  EMC issues            01/01/70 00:00      
                  As sure as one can be...            01/01/70 00:00      
                     All my commercial wire-wrap boards had 'em            01/01/70 00:00      
                        by Dr Howard Johnson and the like            01/01/70 00:00      
                           I don't think so ...            01/01/70 00:00      
                              so you DO think so            01/01/70 00:00      
                                 Well, yes and no ...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                    true, but how often have we seen            01/01/70 00:00      
                                       you can't FIX everything            01/01/70 00:00      
                                          not a word about lying            01/01/70 00:00      
                                             That would be a mistake            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                qualities often lacking            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                   Yes, and that's where the real lesson lies.            01/01/70 00:00      
                        Almost total agree...            01/01/70 00:00      
                           I don't think we entirely disagree, Kai ...            01/01/70 00:00      
                              Yes, less and less entire disagree...            01/01/70 00:00      
                     Slot antenna            01/01/70 00:00      
                        I think it's a loop, not so much a slot antenna            01/01/70 00:00      
                           Slot antennae            01/01/70 00:00      
                              Exactly!            01/01/70 00:00      
   "Target"            01/01/70 00:00      
      Free Target?            01/01/70 00:00      
         Identical            01/01/70 00:00      
            I found 1/2 the answer            01/01/70 00:00      
               why library for LCD?            01/01/70 00:00      
                  It doesn\'t require a library, just a decent editor            01/01/70 00:00      
               ??            01/01/70 00:00      
               In many respects, bEagle is probably the WORST            01/01/70 00:00      
                  I don't like Eagle either! It's not professional!            01/01/70 00:00      
                  hmm            01/01/70 00:00      
                     You may want to go back and read the comments            01/01/70 00:00      
                        I have given up to help Mike...            01/01/70 00:00      
                           I'm not stuck to eagle            01/01/70 00:00      
                              I would try to get a second hand win98 PC            01/01/70 00:00      
                                 He hasn't searched for drivers yet.            01/01/70 00:00      
                                    Not necessarily true...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                       not necessarily, but very likely            01/01/70 00:00      
                              You guys must like microsoft alot            01/01/70 00:00      
                                 ... and you're sure it doesn't emulate a laserjet?            01/01/70 00:00      
                                    stabile and relialbe ?!            01/01/70 00:00      
                                       Well the OS (XP in this case) doesn't type well            01/01/70 00:00      
                                          Stability            01/01/70 00:00      
                                             if it ain't broken...            01/01/70 00:00      
            Not Identical            01/01/70 00:00      
               Huh?            01/01/70 00:00      
                  Looks to me like it is just for hobby or            01/01/70 00:00      
                     What is your manufacturer?            01/01/70 00:00      
                        Sunstone Circuits            01/01/70 00:00      
                           Thanks            01/01/70 00:00      
               Identical refering to operation, of course!            01/01/70 00:00      
                  No, but            01/01/70 00:00      
                     much of?            01/01/70 00:00      
                        One thing he finally accepted ...            01/01/70 00:00      
         Ah, thanks :)            01/01/70 00:00      
      Wrong windows            01/01/70 00:00      
   See my other post...            01/01/70 00:00      
   see my pcb tutorial link in chat forum            01/01/70 00:00      
      What about the associated software?            01/01/70 00:00      
         No direct output            01/01/70 00:00      
         haven't tried it            01/01/70 00:00      
   There's a learning curve with any package            01/01/70 00:00      
      Link?            01/01/70 00:00      
         maybe that's why it still exists            01/01/70 00:00      
      Running on a Windoze box?            01/01/70 00:00      
         It works best on a DOS-box            01/01/70 00:00      
      without commenting on he wisdom            01/01/70 00:00      
         The DOS-OrCAD files import into Capture            01/01/70 00:00      
   Links to other Schematic/Layout software            01/01/70 00:00      
   A Guy in England            01/01/70 00:00      
   pcb software            01/01/70 00:00      
      PCB123            01/01/70 00:00      

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