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???
03/13/07 19:53
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#134906 - All my commercial wire-wrap boards had 'em
Responding to: ???'s previous message
I fully appreciate the benefit of power and ground plane usage. All my commercial wire-wrap boards, both those that I've bought and those that I've sold have had 'em. I've used boards with and without low-impedance power and ground planes. I know what the differences are.

However, before there were affordable multilayer boards, people built very good circuit boards with two layers. Even ECL circuits operating at >200 MHz were built using that technology.

Migrating from two-layer to multilayer technology is not trivial. Yes, it's easy to design circuits with power on the top and gnd on the bottom, or vice versa, with signal layers in the middle. That doesn't always lead to the best circuits, though.

Expecting Mike, who's never designed a board before, to design a proper 4-layer board is a long reach, if you ask me. He's limited by not just budget but by knowledge as well.

As for reliability, wire-wrap and stitch-weld were both found to be more reliable than PCB's back in the early days of the space program. Some of those non-PCB circuits are still working just fine out there in space, where nobody can easily get there to troubleshoot and fix 'em.

Wire-wrap allows for higher density than two-layer boards, with shorter signal paths than 4-layer PCB's would allow. That results in better signal quality and reduced HF power-gnd noise. The fact that wires intersect randomly has an averaging effect on crosstalk, which is minimized. Lots of mistakes, e.g. bundling of wires, use of pre-cut wires, etc, have often given wire-wrap a bad reputation. It's possible to screw up nearly anything, and it's been proven again and again.

A basic 8031 circuit, with address latches and data buffers plus EEPROM and RAM would take a board of about 3x4 inches (the max that bEagle can handle. It would autoroute that in two layers in about 15 seconds, and pretty well. Given many hours, it would still not do any better on a 4-layer board. A perfectly functional two-layer board would cost about $2 here where boards are overpriced as can be, and about $0.20 in China. A useable 4-layer board would take much longer to design, because of the quirks of PCB packages' poured ground and power plane requirements, and might or might not work out properly. Often they leave islands of unconnected pour, just because of the inexperience of the board designer. I dont think it's reasonable to expect a complete neohpyte to "whip-up" a 4-layer board when he's not even ready to design a complete circuit yet.

Most of the original 805x boards I bought back in the '70's and '80's worked just fine, despite the fact they were 2-layer boards. Of those, most are still in service, running machines and doing what they were intended to do.

Yes, multilayer boards make high-frequency work easier, as they allow the precise control of signal path lengths to within a millimeter or so. That's not often necessary with circuits that operate at <50 MHz, though.

RE


List of 81 messages in thread
TopicAuthorDate
new PCB software wanted            01/01/70 00:00      
   If that is the case be happy, the more jumpe            01/01/70 00:00      
   Mike, when will you...            01/01/70 00:00      
      It isn't me            01/01/70 00:00      
         Four layer boards??            01/01/70 00:00      
            The only you get is a circuit >somwhat working<            01/01/70 00:00      
               sure, but he does not want to 'design' he wants to            01/01/70 00:00      
                  Connect A to B            01/01/70 00:00      
                     naah            01/01/70 00:00      
               are you sure you're not overstating your case?            01/01/70 00:00      
                  EMC issues            01/01/70 00:00      
                  As sure as one can be...            01/01/70 00:00      
                     All my commercial wire-wrap boards had 'em            01/01/70 00:00      
                        by Dr Howard Johnson and the like            01/01/70 00:00      
                           I don't think so ...            01/01/70 00:00      
                              so you DO think so            01/01/70 00:00      
                                 Well, yes and no ...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                    true, but how often have we seen            01/01/70 00:00      
                                       you can't FIX everything            01/01/70 00:00      
                                          not a word about lying            01/01/70 00:00      
                                             That would be a mistake            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                qualities often lacking            01/01/70 00:00      
                                                   Yes, and that's where the real lesson lies.            01/01/70 00:00      
                        Almost total agree...            01/01/70 00:00      
                           I don't think we entirely disagree, Kai ...            01/01/70 00:00      
                              Yes, less and less entire disagree...            01/01/70 00:00      
                     Slot antenna            01/01/70 00:00      
                        I think it's a loop, not so much a slot antenna            01/01/70 00:00      
                           Slot antennae            01/01/70 00:00      
                              Exactly!            01/01/70 00:00      
   "Target"            01/01/70 00:00      
      Free Target?            01/01/70 00:00      
         Identical            01/01/70 00:00      
            I found 1/2 the answer            01/01/70 00:00      
               why library for LCD?            01/01/70 00:00      
                  It doesn\'t require a library, just a decent editor            01/01/70 00:00      
               ??            01/01/70 00:00      
               In many respects, bEagle is probably the WORST            01/01/70 00:00      
                  I don't like Eagle either! It's not professional!            01/01/70 00:00      
                  hmm            01/01/70 00:00      
                     You may want to go back and read the comments            01/01/70 00:00      
                        I have given up to help Mike...            01/01/70 00:00      
                           I'm not stuck to eagle            01/01/70 00:00      
                              I would try to get a second hand win98 PC            01/01/70 00:00      
                                 He hasn't searched for drivers yet.            01/01/70 00:00      
                                    Not necessarily true...            01/01/70 00:00      
                                       not necessarily, but very likely            01/01/70 00:00      
                              You guys must like microsoft alot            01/01/70 00:00      
                                 ... and you're sure it doesn't emulate a laserjet?            01/01/70 00:00      
                                    stabile and relialbe ?!            01/01/70 00:00      
                                       Well the OS (XP in this case) doesn't type well            01/01/70 00:00      
                                          Stability            01/01/70 00:00      
                                             if it ain't broken...            01/01/70 00:00      
            Not Identical            01/01/70 00:00      
               Huh?            01/01/70 00:00      
                  Looks to me like it is just for hobby or            01/01/70 00:00      
                     What is your manufacturer?            01/01/70 00:00      
                        Sunstone Circuits            01/01/70 00:00      
                           Thanks            01/01/70 00:00      
               Identical refering to operation, of course!            01/01/70 00:00      
                  No, but            01/01/70 00:00      
                     much of?            01/01/70 00:00      
                        One thing he finally accepted ...            01/01/70 00:00      
         Ah, thanks :)            01/01/70 00:00      
      Wrong windows            01/01/70 00:00      
   See my other post...            01/01/70 00:00      
   see my pcb tutorial link in chat forum            01/01/70 00:00      
      What about the associated software?            01/01/70 00:00      
         No direct output            01/01/70 00:00      
         haven't tried it            01/01/70 00:00      
   There's a learning curve with any package            01/01/70 00:00      
      Link?            01/01/70 00:00      
         maybe that's why it still exists            01/01/70 00:00      
      Running on a Windoze box?            01/01/70 00:00      
         It works best on a DOS-box            01/01/70 00:00      
      without commenting on he wisdom            01/01/70 00:00      
         The DOS-OrCAD files import into Capture            01/01/70 00:00      
   Links to other Schematic/Layout software            01/01/70 00:00      
   A Guy in England            01/01/70 00:00      
   pcb software            01/01/70 00:00      
      PCB123            01/01/70 00:00      

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