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12/22/07 11:11
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 		 #148613 - Is anything truly random?
Responding to: ???'s previous message
Joe said:
I'd be willing to argue that point. Radioactive decay is a physical process. Thus it is governed by the laws of physics, including causality.

In other words, something causes the bits of radiation (¥á, ©¬ and ¥Ã) to accelerate away from their former host. Just because we can't predict when it will happen doesn't mean it's random. Much more likely it's chaotic. And chaotic systems are not random. They're entirely deterministic, just beyond our ability to predict.

So how is it then that a set of random numbers are generated by that wholly deterministic (albeit unpredictable) process?

If you asked John Walker (the guy who put up that website that I referenced) that last question, I think he would start talking about quantum mechanics and the uncertainty principle and things of that nature.

Unfortunately, I don't know anything about radioactive decay, or quantum mechanics, or what "causality" really means, or even the difference between "random" and "chaotic". So I'm not qualified in any way to discuss these things in any significant depth. I do have a few questions, however:
  • First, I would be really interested if you could explain the difference between "random" and "chaotic" in a way that I could understand.

  • Second, since any process that we can observe is going to be a physical one, would you argue that there is in fact no such thing as an observable random process? Would you go one step further and say that there are no random processes at all?

  • Finally, from a practical standpoint (e.g. "let's build a fair slot machine"), is there any difference between "random" and "unpredictable"?
-- Russ


List of 53 messages in thread
TopicAuthorDate
let's discuss random numbers            01/01/70 00:00      
   Radomness            01/01/70 00:00      
   chi squared....            01/01/70 00:00      
      51 related            01/01/70 00:00      
   how random is "Random"?            01/01/70 00:00      
      Quantifying randomness            01/01/70 00:00      
   Use one table in the memory            01/01/70 00:00      
   no 'mathematical solution can do that            01/01/70 00:00      
      I like your response            01/01/70 00:00      
   ADC and noise            01/01/70 00:00      
      reminds me of a funny story            01/01/70 00:00      
         Simple local shielding would have helped            01/01/70 00:00      
         Bad design!            01/01/70 00:00      
   The counter and button seems perfect to me            01/01/70 00:00      
   Not sure why people have problems with RNG            01/01/70 00:00      
      what I got out of all of this            01/01/70 00:00      
         Not quite?            01/01/70 00:00      
            And if there isn't a button?            01/01/70 00:00      
         no            01/01/70 00:00      
         More Not Quite            01/01/70 00:00      
            chi square isn't enough            01/01/70 00:00      
               Quantified randomness            01/01/70 00:00      
      By Definition            01/01/70 00:00      
      RNG schemes can be malicious!            01/01/70 00:00      
   pseudo IS pseudo, not random            01/01/70 00:00      
   A really good reference            01/01/70 00:00      
   Is radioactive decay truely random?            01/01/70 00:00      
      Correction            01/01/70 00:00      
      Is anything truly random?            01/01/70 00:00      
         Chaos is...            01/01/70 00:00      
            Chaos is not random.            01/01/70 00:00      
               I didnt tell that it is random            01/01/70 00:00      
   Visual randomness test            01/01/70 00:00      
      Las Vegas            01/01/70 00:00      
      Only for an indefinite number of pixels            01/01/70 00:00      
         How about a coin toss experiment, sort of.            01/01/70 00:00      
            Set of what ?            01/01/70 00:00      
               But my point is that you can know.            01/01/70 00:00      
                  This is wrong, sorry!            01/01/70 00:00      
                     Are you even reading what I wrote?            01/01/70 00:00      
                        A random system is....            01/01/70 00:00      
                           AKA the LCE            01/01/70 00:00      
                           Random is            01/01/70 00:00      
                        Of course, I did            01/01/70 00:00      
                           Before we proceed, ...            01/01/70 00:00      
                              Randomness versus determinism            01/01/70 00:00      
                                 Applying the uncertainty principle            01/01/70 00:00      
                                    Thanks            01/01/70 00:00      
                                       You're welcome            01/01/70 00:00      
                  It is still Random            01/01/70 00:00      
            Depends            01/01/70 00:00      
   Normal distribution.            01/01/70 00:00      
   A random # generator circuit.            01/01/70 00:00      

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